Int Dec76

When One Piece At A Time went to Number One on the country singles charts it was plain that Cash was back, and this time in high style. Since the late Sixties, Cash's records have been rather strange &emdash;more the recorded evidence of a great artist floundering in confusion than the masterful products of Cash's own unique mold. The hardness, the humor, the songwriting genius, that rockabilly "magic thumb," were hard to find on those records, and most of them failed to reach the top.

Meanwhile, however, Cash was still a major force. His charisma continued to make him the most respected and perhaps the most interesting male country singer of our time, and it seemed that even if he never produced any more music from the top of his form, he'd still be The Man. But it also seemed that in place of John R. Cash the musician, we might have to settle for Johnny Cash the public figure&emdash; author, folklorist, preacher, patriot, figurehead and moral backbone.

Two years ago, when I interviewed him in New York, it seemed that Cash was aware of this theme, and didn't like it. We discussed his plans to return to the old Sun Records sound by recording with the Tennessee Three, producer/songwriter Jack Clement, and Waylon Jennings&emdash;his old colleagues from the crazy days which produced most of his strongest material and just about all of his big hits. My impression then was that some sort of life cycle had ended for Cash; that he was through readjusting himself to pill-less reality, finding his sanity and accomplishing the kind of goals represented by his religion, his family life, and the House of Cash, and that now he might be secure enough to begin playing again.

It was encouraging to watch Cash put his plan into action at the House of Cash with Waylon, Jack and company. Though no tracks from those sessions have been released, the music was legitimately great (if a disk ever surfaces, get it) and the event reestablished Cash's links with the musical world he helped create back in '56 (which is no small point; scratch today's Waylon Sound and you'll find the Cash/Clement style of the late Fifties).

The end result of Cash's decision was One Piece At A Time and the album named after that superb, funny, slapback single. The album definitely recalls the "old" Cash. The production is a rockabilly's joy, the singing there, in tune with the spirit, and the inclusion of hard-edged songs like Committed To Parkview and Daughter Of A Railroad Man does a lot to destroy the often saccharine, musically unimpressive memory of Cash's last cycle. The album stands, in 1976, as a decent example of the state of the art, and Cash is planning to follow it with more of the same, plus another delightful wrinkle&emdash;duet work with Waylon.

This time, I talked to Cash on August 10th in Valley Forge, Pa. He was, as usual, frank about his music, himself, and his politics.

CARR: When I interviewed you two years ago, you said, "It's apparent that what I've been doing is not really what the people want to hear, so I'm going to try to do something that they want to hear. . . " It strikes me, after listening to the One Piece At A Time album, that you've done just that.

CASH: I meant what I said, see. . . right? I think that I did something they wanted to hear, and what they wanted to hear was what I've done best all along&emdash;and that's the three-chord ballad with the Tennessee Three. I'm glad that's what they want because I know how to do that.

CARR: Is that what you enjoy doing most?

CASH: Yes, it really is. It's what I enjoy most. I'm getting such a kick out of it, feeling the same things I was feeling twenty years ago in my music. It's a whole new discovery for me, y'know&emdash;like, "Hey, I remember how good this felt, and I remember when I did it like this, and this is the way it feels best." Y'know? I just recorded a song I wrote 18 years ago and forgot about. A song called It's All Over. It sounds like the things I was doing eighteen years ago, and that's the way I recorded it, with the Tennessee Three. It's a weeper, a love song. It's kind of like being reborn again. I started out with that old simple sound on Sun Records, and I enjoyed it, and the

CARR: During that whole period when you were messing around with arrangements and so on, were you in control? Was all that stuff your doing?

CASH: Well, I agreed to it. That came out of a meeting I had with some Columbia Records people. They came out to my concert in Las Vegas, and they talked about, "Let's try something. Let's try this arranger. Let's try recording with the Big Sound. "

CARR: Was the arranger Gary Klein?

CASH: Yes. For that kind of stuff, Gary is the best there is. He really knows what he's doing. . . They thought it was the way to go, and I didn't know for sure at the time. So I went along with it, and I let them select most of the songs&emdash;which was a mistake, because if I'm not personally involved in my music, it ain't going to be right. I'm not going to have a feeling for it when I go into the studio. So all that whole scene, as capable as Gary Klein is, was a wrong scene for me.

But I learned a lot, and somewhere along the line Gary and I will do something&emdash;something that requires the kind of taste and artistry he's got. But it's like, ah&emdash;please pardon me for getting into politics&emdash;it's like we learned from the Vietnam war not to send troops to Africa, y'know? (laughs) And by the same token, I learned from those production days with Gary Klein that I shouldn't do it that way any more.

CARR: These days you're choosing your own material, right?

CASH: Yeah. That's the big thing, too. These days I'm totally involved with it from the time I choose the songs until the thing is finished in the mix. That's another thing I didn't use to get involved in. After the session was over, I'd never be there for the mix. I threw a lot of good sounds away because I didn't give them my ideas, y'know?

Charlie Bragg works with me at the studio, and he's the one who harped on me about, "Go back to the old sound, go back to the old sound." My attitude was "Oh, I can always do that. I want to do something else." So he mixed it the way I wanted him to. I'd tell him how I wanted it, and that's the way he'd do it&emdash;under protest. He was a mighty happy man when I got into the studio with him when he'd called a session for mixing, and I said, "Let's put the slapback on there. Let's put the old Sun slapback on there and forget about quadraphonic sound and stereo and everything, and make it sound like 1957." And I enjoyed it! I didn't think I'd enjoy it, but I did, and I got to thinking...''Cash, you got involved in selecting the song; you put it down the way you wanted it; you saw it through the session. It would be stupid now to stay out of the mixing&emdash;like getting a ship almost to the shore, then turning it over to somebody else in the middle of a storm." So now I go in with Charlie on the mixing, and I tell him how I want it. We have some disagreements, but it always comes out the way I want it. (laughs). I'm really enjoying it. I guess that's the whole key to it. If I don't enjoy it, somehow the people out there know it. For some reason, they know it.

CARR: Well, they usually do, don't they? That's what most of those producers forget. But how did you come by One Piece At A Time, John?

CASH: Don Davis found it, and called me. Wayne Kemp was going to record it himself, but Don asked him to let me have it. They agreed, and Don brought it out to me.

CARR: Did you know it was the one when you heard it?

CASH: Yeah, I knew it. I knew that was it.

CARR: That's your first Number One single in. . . oh, how long now?

CASH: I guess since Man In Black. . . No, since Flash And Blood, 1971. Five years.

CARR: It must feel kinda good.

CASH: It really does. It really does. It's a joy, y'know? I dunno, maybe it's 'cause I'm older now. I used to take those hit records for granted. Back when everything I was releasing was going to Number One or up in the tops, I kinda took it for granted. Like, I would never look at the trade magazines. People would say, "Congratulations on your Number One record," and I wouldn't even know it was Number One. But it's like everyone shared in the excitement of One Piece At A Time being Number One. Everybody in town would be calling the office or the studio, saying "It's number seven this week," and somebody would get a tip that it was going to be number four next week, and they'd call. So I started looking at the trade magazines. I still don't read 'em, but I look at the charts and see who's doing what and what's happening in the business...who's selling, who's not. It' kinda interesting&emdash;again.

See, I had a couple of side involvement that took a lot of time and energy&emdash;but those were awfully important to me, an they were what I wanted them to be. That was my movie and my book. And you've only got so much energy. Right now I'm putting my energy into my music.

CARR: What about Jack Clement Anything doing there? Are you doing an work with him?

CASH: Well, Jack Clement is always around, and I feel like I am, too, an sooner or later Jack Clement and I will d something together again. We didn't d too bad on Ring Of Fire and Ballad Of Teenage Queen and Guess Thing Happen That Way, some of those&emdash;an we'll have some ideas that gel perfectly sometime, and we'll get back in the studio together eventually.

CARR: Is anything going to happen to those tracks you recorded with Clement an Waylon a couple of years ago&emdash;the firs cut on Committed To Parkview, You're So Heavenly Minded You're No Earthly Good&emdash;all those?

CASH: Ah. . . We had one that I really like Someday My Ship Will Sail. I think Waylon and I are going to get that one out an listen to it again and see if we need to d anything to it. Waylon and I just did an other session, did you know that?

CARR: Yeah. Just this past Monday, right?

CASH: Yeah. We cut two tracks for a single together, I Wish I Was Crazy Again an There Ain't No Good Chain Gang. I guess we're just going to call the record companies' bluff. They say we can't record an album together, but I think we're going to do it anyway, and then say "Her it is. Work something out." I guess w could both get in trouble, but I tell you what: I respect Waylon as an artist, and think he respects me. We've been friend for 15 years and we always did enjoy working together, and just because we both happen to be professionals and make a lot of money for other people doing it, I really don't see where that should hold us back artistically. If we want to get back in the studio together, we're going to do it. I think these record companies ought to set up a subsidiary amongst them for people like us, 'cause we're going to cut an album together. No doubt. We might do some country classics like Lost Highway, some of those old heavy things. And we'll do it.

CARR: You were talking about taking more control over your music. Did the One Piece At A Time album really satisfy you on that level?

CASH: No, it just kinda got me primed and cocked for more and better to come. Like, it slipped me back into a whole new world of music and directions. . . Iike, I just recorded an old Presley song, You're Right, I'm Left, She's Gone, and I did it with trumpets like I had on Ring Of Fire, and I've kind of got a sneaky feeling about that one. I really like the sound on it. I've always loved the song. . . So we're going to do an album of the old Sun things, the old Memphis stuff, '53 to '56. That's my next album project, the second one after One Piece At A Time. Some of my songs, a couple of Presley's, maybe a Carl Perkins song, a Roy Orbison song. It's not just an attempt to recreate that sound. I think we can make it sound like today's market, like today's thing, y'know? 'Cause I really enjoy it, and I search my conscience, and if I sing something I really enjoy, then that's what I ought to do. It's not always commercial, but it's what I ought to do. It's like One Piece At A Time. It was really what I wanted to do. I couldn't have been happier, unless it had been a song of mine.

CARR: That song was&emdash;well, not exactly socially acceptable, you know what I mean? I mean, it was really nice to hear you sticking it to the car companies.

CASH: Well, it's maybe back a bit more towards a more realistic outlook on life, y'know? There's so many people that would like to rip off the factory. It's not a sentiment that's totally far out for me, because I worked at Fisher Body Company making 1951 Pontiacs in 1950. I worked as a punch press operator in Pontiac, Michigan in the factory&emdash;so I kinda had an understanding about what I was singing.

CARR: Would you say that the sentiments of the song echoed your own feelings, then?

CASH: Probably did so. I was eighteen years old, broke, hitch-hiked to Pontiac, Michigan, got a job in the car factory and there was all this wealth of car parts rolling down the assembly line and these brand new '51 Pontiacs coming off the other end. . . I guess every one of us in that place had thoughts about driving home one of those things. Or someday owning this construction company. Y'know, everybody that's ever worked cleaning up trash for a construction company has had these thoughts at the back of his mind..."One of these days, I'm gonna own this construction company!" Well, I felt that way about Fisher Body Company. So when the song came along, it was like memory time for me.

CARR: There was a lot of pretty hot picking on the album&emdash;a touch of the old boogie-woogie there. Are we likely to be hearing more of that from you? It's not something you've done much of in the past.

CASH: Yeah, I think so. City Jail, a song I just wrote for the next album, has that boogie-woogie in there. Jerry (Hensley) is on all my sessions now, so you'll be hearing more from him.

CARR: Have you been writing much lately?

CASH: Ah&emdash;I haven't written anything in about a month or so, but I write in cycles, y'know. Like, when I was getting ready to do this last album, I wrote like a house on fire. And when I get ready to work on the next album, that'll inspire me to write some more. Yeah, I have some ideas that I'll be working on.

CARR: You know, there's an awful lot of emotional range between a song like Sold Out Of Flagpoles and one like Committed to Parkview.

CASH: Well, they're from two different slices of life, and life is made up of all kinds of highs and lows, ups and downs&emdash; emotions. Sold Out of Flagpoles is the light, up side, and Committed To Parkview is the valley. Committed To Parkview was somewhere. . . I've been. I still write about things I remember. I still sing Sunday Morning Coming Down 'cause "I can't afford the luxury of taking a drink or taking a pill . . . 'cause you see, even after I quit in '67, I goofed up a few times. Several times. Nobody read about it in the papers, but I did."

It's something you don't shake in seven years, that kind of life. You might have become a different person, you don't live that way anymore, but it's sure not easy to forget the bad times. For the time I was singing Committed To Parkview I was there.

CARR: Do you still have a bad time sometimes? Temptation? Despair?

CASH: No, I'm never in despair. I'm never depressed. I got a lot on my mind sometimes, and it might appear like I'm depressed, but I never am. Temptation, yeah. I haven't fallen to it, but it still gnaws at me. It's a daily fight. But I can't afford the luxury of taking a drink or taking a pill because I'd have to have another one if I did. I know that. 'Cause you see, even after I quit in '67, I goofed up a few times. Several times. Nobody read about it in the papers, but I did, like when I went to the Far East in '69 and when I was in California cutting the San Quentin album. There were three or four times when I had to keep relearning my lesson that I can't mess with it, or I'm dead. And I know that's where I'd be if I got back into that stuff. It's either a matter of life or death with me. I either don't do it and live, or I do it and die. That's the way it is.

CARR: Is it a hard fight?

CASH: No, it's not really, because I got it all together family-wise, love affair-wise and everything else. I'm very much in love with my wife. I don't have any desire to fool around, and I really don't like liquor anyway. I know I'd really get a kick out of the pills for a while, but I can't do that. No, I'm really happy. I really think I'm a well-adjusted man.

CARR: You carry a lot of responsibility. . .

CASH: Ohhuh. You bet.

CARR: You're a figurehead, a target... does that bother you?

CASH: Being a figurehead and a target and carrying a lot of responsibility? Yeah, I get really get tired of the responsibility I have to bear. But being what I am, and with the success that's come my way, that's all a part of it.

Sometimes I really get tired of it. Sometimes I really want to shake it all off and go sit under a tree all day and forget who I am and where I am. That doesn't happen very often, 'cause, you know, I enjoy being Johnny Cash, I really do. Today at that press conference, all that attention&emdash; anybody would have to be crazy not to like being admired and respected that much, to have all these people fly in from all over the country just to sit and talk to me. I enjoy being Johnny Cash most of the time. The only thing that really irritates me&emdash;and it really irritates me badly, to where I might use a little force&emdash;is these people. . . I've seen them at my office all day long, and I've seen them on the road between my office and my house, I've waited while they got out of my way so l can drive out of my driveway, I've stopped to take the pictures and sign autographs and talk to them (and I talk to them every time). And yet, when I get ready for bed and I bed down with my family for the night, they come knocking at my door. That. . . really. . . irritates . . . me, and I'm not gonna be responsible for what I say and do. I'm sorry to say I've really been rude to a few people. I just explode, y'know, when they coming knocking at ten o'clock and say "I've driven a thousand miles, and you gotta talk to me."

But the responsibility of living up to people's expectations about what they want me to be&emdash;being a figurehead&emdash;I don't mind that. I got a lot of self-confidence. I can handle any situation I've been faced with in that line.

CARR: What kind of a feeling do you get about the industry these days, John? You know, about how the music's going, how the controls are operating. . . the Outlaws thing, for instance?

CASH: I think all of that's good, y'know. And it's nothing new. The more change there is, the healthier the whole picture is. We can't lay back on our accomplishments and achievements. . . you know, "when this runs out I'll just quit.''

Now, so far as the directions in the business, the Outlaws, I think that's just another way of saying "new direction." Waylon, Willie, Tompall, all of them are saying the same things, but they're saying them differently, and as an artist I really appreciate that. Y'know, myself, back in '56, I had a hard time breaking into the country music community in Nashville. I came up to the Grand Ole Opry to talk to Jim Denny, who was the manager of the Opry. I Walk The Line was Number One. I had an appointment&emdash;finally, my manager had gotten me an appointment&emdash;but I sat in his outer office about two hours before he ever saw me. Finally he let me come in, and the very first question was, "What makes you think you belong on the Grand Ole Opry?" See, I was one of those Memphis rockabillies&emdash;had sideburns &emdash;from that Memphis school of Presley and Perkins and Lewis and Orbison and Cash. It was a wonder they even let us in the city limits, the way they looked down at us at the time. Elvis had had a bad experience there&emdash;a very disappointing, unsettling experience. But Jim Denny asked me that question. I believe I'd just read Dale Carnegie's "How To Win Friends And Influence People" or some such thing, so I sat back and collected my thoughts after such a brusque, abrupt invitation to conversation, and I said, "Well, I love country music&emdash;always sung it&emdash;and besides that, I have a Number One country record." He sat and looked at me for five minutes before he ever answered me, and then he said, "When do you think you can come up here?"

But that first night, I got the feeling backstage at the Opry that there were a few of them weren't too happy to have me there. A few of them were maybe afraid of the competition (something I've really learned to appreciate is competition), but there were some of them like June Carter who really made me feel welcome. She'd worked shows with Elvis, you know, knew the Memphis scene. Then there was Minnie Pearl, and Roy Acuff, Hank Snow . . . y'see, guys like Acuff and Hank Snow are smart enough to know that people's tastes change. How many decades had they been singing, even in 1956? Acuff's smart enough to know that new people are gonna come along and be accepted, but that doesn't necessarily mean the old ones have to go cut their throats. Hank Snow had befriended Elvis. There were a few small minds who wouldn't talk to us as we walked by, but I made it. It took a while, though.

But back to your question. Rebels are going to come along and if they're not accepted they're gonna rebel until somebody notices them. But the thing that has been noticed about some of these rebels like Waylon is the talent. Who's going to deny Waylon's talent?

CARR: You have any gripes about the industry?

CASH: Well, the record companies in our business are all looking for the "crossover" record, and the Nashville hype is the big thing going around. These radio stations all over the country get a call from a promoter or publicist or public relations person in Nashville, saying "jump on this one, it's a crossover record." The whole deal is trying to cut a country song with a crossover sound, a crossover feel, so it'll get on the pop stations. My friend Hugh Cherry talks about us standing in danger of country music losing its identity or its net worth, maybe, by concentrating on crossover and not concentrating on good country, and I think there's a lot in what he has to say.

I'm proud of the fact that my big crossover songs&emdash;I Walk The Line or Folsom Prison Blues were country. In no way were they an attempt to cut a crossover song. They made it over into the other markets on their own merits.

The whole big thing now is to cut a record that'll blanket all the stations across the board, right off, and I think the music, the songs, the records are suffering. A lot of songs that could have been good country records aren't anything, because such an attempt was made to make them crossovers.

You know, take Waylon. I can't remember hearing a record Waylon cut that sounded anything like an obvious attempt to put out a crossover record. Every record I've heard of Waylon has just been Waylon.

CARR: John, who would you pick for the CMA Awards this year?

CASH: Male Vocalist, Waylon. Female Vocalist? Looks like Tanya Tucker. Country Music Hall of Fame&emdash;Merle Travis. Merle Travis or Kitty Wells. They both deserve it, even though I'm one of the finalists. I was really surprised when I saw I was on the list. I really felt twenty years older.

CARR: John, what do you think of Jimmy Carter?

CASH: I knew you were gonna get around to this. How many political questions you got there, Patrick? Looks like a bunch.

CARR: C'mon, John, you worry too much. That's my shopping list. There's only one question. Really, now&emdash;what do you think of him?

CASH: Well, I think Jimmy Carter is part of the whole air of positivity in politics that has come around recently in healing this country's experience from Watergate and Vietnam. Now, Jimmy Carter&emdash;some of those who say they're voting for him are doing it because they believe what he believes, and some of them are voting for him because he believes in something. Whether they do or not, they're voting for him because he believes in something. "I'm not sure I do, but I know he does, so I'll vote for him. . ." That's the feeling I get from some people. I think he'll probably be the next President, and I think everything's gonna be all right. On the other side. . . well, you didn't ask me that, so I ain't gonna tell you.

CARR: Mr. Ford?

CASH: Looks like he's done a pretty good job.

JUNE CARTER: I like Jimmy Carter the best 'cause of family ties.

CASH: Jimmy Carter's June's fourth cousin, I believe it is. Yeah, they're cousins. He brought it up. He's the one who told her where the family ties lie. She was really surprised. He'd told her that before, kidding, y'know, but recently he told her the names&emdash;how they're related.

But I really think he will be the next President, and I guess that would be all right.

CARR: You feel OK about that, huh?

CASH: Yeah, I think I'm going to vote for him. I think I am. I'm not going to say for sure, but I told him I was gonna vote for him. That was about three months ago, and I haven't changed my mind yet.

CARR: Has he asked you to work for him?

CASH: Yes, he did. I haven't replied to that request except...Well, I don't think it would be fair for me to campaign for a Presidential candidate and try to influence people that way. That's important stuff and big stuff, and I don't think I've got a right to exercise any such control over the people. Voting is kind of a sacred, precious thing in this country. . . You're the first person in the press I've ever told about voting for Carter. I'm not recommending that anyone else vote for him; I just think I'm going to.

I didn't refuse to work for Jimmy. Jimmy just mentioned that he'd like for me to make an appearance with him later on this year in a key place, but I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to do that.

CARR: Along with Jimmy Carter comes the whole notion that the South is going to be in the driver's seat if he gets elected. I wonder if you think that there's something about the South&emdash;some basic virtues, whatever&emdash;that might not go amiss in Washington? You know&emdash;the politics of love, the stress of family ties, all that?

CASH: Yeah, but you know, I think that's a false impression that those kind of things like solid family ties are characteristically Southern. Or that faith in God is characteristically Southern. I think that's a misconception, an untrue philosophy about the South. I think that if it holds true there, it holds true in Michigan.

I think that probably there may be a spiritual strength that's stronger in the South, in what people very loosely refer to as the Bible Belt. I think that anybody with that spiritual strength would be a better President, a better leader, that that kind of mood and atmosphere and reliance upon.... I think a man like that would do a better job. I'd feel safer with him in there, y'know. . . a man who relied upon that spiritual power to determine his decisions, that spiritual discretion, 'cause it gives him a sense of conscience, like a compass. And that really works&emdash;I know that for a fact, from personal experience. That conscience is awfully important, I think, when you're dealing with the lives of millions of people.

Again, I don't know if the South's got anything over any other part of the country along that line. They show more dirty movies in the South than they do anywhere else. . . I just don't know. All this doesn't answer your question very well, but I don't know how to.

CARR: I think it does, y'know. You did raise the question of moral integrity&emdash;spiritual integrity&emdash;and that's not insignificant.

CASH: "Integrity" I guess, is the word I'm trying to say. I feel that Jimmy Carter has that integrity. Not that Ford doesn't&emdash;he has that compass, too&emdash;but we're choosing a new man, and Jimmy's my choice of the new ones that are on the horizon and trying for the job.